Foreign Ratings Recognized

[pchapman]

To keep in mind here is that Jonathan has a very specific requirement -- someone from the US who would like SOME recognition of their US qualifications. That's someone who was legitimately a long time US resident, not a Canadian going down there for the winter to get some US ratings.

So Jonathan, what Beatnik is talking about isn't your personal awkward situation, but of totally opening the flood gates, accepting every foreign rating unconditionally. So I could see a lot more people being against the latter, than trying to find a way to give partial credit to someone foreign moving to Canada.

Even for Canadian's the requirements just for CoP's can be extremely strict. I'm not sure what really happens, but our rules require certain people to witness certain jumps. So if you're a newer Canadian jumper, and do a pre-planned accuracy landing while in Florida, it doesn't count for one's CoP's even if the entire US National accuracy team and judges are watching, unless one of them actually has the appropriate Canadian coach or instructor rating. That's the kind of area where it would be reasonable to come up with some US equivalents. (Even if, say, one could only count that towards a maximum of 50% of the jumps required within any skills category.) All that is a separate although related topic from recognizing foreign instructor ratings.

[jonathan.newman]

Hi Jim,
I understand some of what's going on. I'd be lying if I said I knew it all. I understand that the voting members at the AGM are all representative of one club or DZ. Us little CSPA members don't actually get to vote. Remember that. The people who raised, seconded, and approved this motion are (likely) all DZOs or DZMs.

I think the CWC has a role. I am very impressed with the quality of the PIM. I appreciate all the work that they put into creating a quality instructional method to teach skydiving. I don't think they need to be eliminated or slaved to the USPA. I would have loved if they had a system to challenge ratings, but I've already said that. I don't think the problem is the CWC. I think it's the availability of instructor rating courses, but that's going out on a limb.

Every member country of the FAI IPC issues CoPs that are recognized by all others. So, we'll recognize those CoPs, but not recognize the instructors who signed them. Hmm.

Insurance is an issue. I know of DZOs who demand that every jumper (foreign and domestic) be CSPA members just for the insurance. "Your USPA CoPs are valid, and your $50k insurance is valid, but we want the $2M coverage, so here's the form." Wasn't there some discussion last October about allowing visiting jumpers to buy temporary memberships JUST FOR THE INSURANCE?!? The insurance and the defense fund are there because the skydiving community finds value in them. They may not be profitable for CSPA. But you bet the insurance is profitable for the insurer. Is that ALL that CSPA should be doing, offering insurance? No, of course not. But I refuse to believe we are standing on the slippery slope of CSPA's downfall. Or the slippery slope that leads to the implosion of all the instructor examiners in Canada. CSPA is not going anywhere.

Regardless of where this goes from here, there is a large chorus of DZOs who are shouting that something is wrong with the status quo. CSPA can ignore this at its own peril. THAT is what will bring down the CSPA faster than a minority government in Parliament. (that was my attempt at Canadian political humour. You like that?) Not having easier access to ratings courses.

[David Hodge]

I had a good talk with Tim Grech today and he offered a very attractive option to meet the needs of DZO's today, make the insurance companies happy and not have to open the flood gates. I will not go into details of this option proposed but I personally believe it to be an excellent idea that I have had a few other agree to the concept being a viable solution for a quick launch and to be replaced by a more permanent solution in the future seasons when more resources are available.

I will be passing it along to the rest of the board and the CWC for consideration and I shall go into details in the upcoming days as to what I (not the board or CWC) would like to see happen, now it’s time to sell the idea.

The ideas, concerns and comments made in this thread have been extremely valuable, and give all sides of the coin; at least a good number of sides; so I thank each of you for participating.

[Beatnik]

Jonathon:

You are tying things together that really can't be tied together. If you wanted to know why CoPs are recognized by all countries, it is because the FAI sets the standards and pretty much everyone exceeds them. Attached is a document that contains those standards. Because of that, I did discuss the issue of temporary membership because of the insurance because of the fact that the standards are so far exceeded.

You can believe whatever you want about where the CSPA stands. I am not going to get into all the other issues that are being faced or reiterate why this is a slippery slope. You are the one that is pointing out this is a issue with the status quo but choose to believe that CSPA would still exist for what if other nations ratings are recognized? Do you realize that it would also involve people getting other nations CoPs to get these ratings? It would just continue to go down. You are seeing it one way because it benefits you. Really, this argument is really getting tiring because you can't see past that or realize everything else that goes with this.

[chris_k]

In the mean time DZ's are taking the motion passing as a 'yes' to foreign rated instructors. Therefore these DZ's are already using Foreign rated people.

What is the official CSPA rulling on this? (All others thanks for the input but i want to hear from a CSPA rep on this one)

Are they covered by the insurance if something happens before this investigative comittee draws a conclusion?

[David Hodge]

The AFF to PFF conversion was outlined in my -long- letter from a few weeks back. The conversion elements include the changes requested by the board in last month’s conference call.

I have asked the CWC, through our national office, to transmit the details of the conversion program to DZOs, club presidents and course facilitators. I would expect having been given the assurances from the CWC that their services to the membership will be of a speedy nature so I should be able to safely assume that the complete outline will be forthcoming soon.

If you are a foreign rated Tandem Master, you will be required to have a CSPA membership and you must send in to our national office a copy of your foreign CoP, Foreign Coach Rating and the tandem rating to be guaranteed coverage’s. All foreign materials must be current as expired ratings/CoPs will invalidate the coverage.

It is the responsibility of the DZ and the foreign rated person to ensure the office has a copy of their active accreditations at all times.

Please contact the CWC for further details, as they have assured me of speedy responses to inquiries.

[Goobersnuftda]

I know this is a huge pain in the ass thing to be forced to deal with but what would stop the membership from bringing up a motion at the next AGM that no foreign ratings should be recognized and to reverse last years motion?

How about your DZ invest in training Coach-1's so that some day they can become Jump Masters, then Coach-2's then Tandem then PFF ......

[IanHarrop]

Nothing can stop a group member from bringing up a motion at the AGM.
Would they get the backing of enough other group members to pass the motion?

Considering that the motion to recognize foreign ratings passed I think its safe to believe that there would not be enough votes to reverse the previous decision unless there is some sort of royal screw up in the implementation of what has already been passed.

[meister]

OK, Here is my situation.
I am a CSPA C2 and JM and wanted desperately to get my PFF but of course, there was no course offered or a means of seeing when the next course would be offered.
I went online and easily found when and where AFF courses were running in the USA and obtained my AFF.
Of course when I returned to Canada I was informed that a course was being offered in French. (I don't speak French)

I would like to see what your opinions are. What should be done in My situation? I still want my PFF. What would be a reasonable course of action?

I am a proud Canuck and always will be. However I am frustrated beyond words with the CSPA!! (but thats another story) :-/

[Goobersnuftda]

I have just received my PFF last month in Canada. One of the issues is that there are currently only 2 IPFF Course Conductors in all of Canada.

Derek is one of them in Alberta and we heard that in July he put on a PFF course. As it turned out, the two of us had lined up our PFF course a few months prior to that so we flew to Montreal and took the course with Mario (I don't speak french either). Wow, what a course and a half (no vacation, it was all be the duck ) and the tunnel was a tremendous training aid (we really, really needed it). Right after us at Skydive Montreal there was another course lined up for 3 more candidates.

I do feel your pain. Tons of emails sent into the "black hole". I learned long ago to go direct. Don't ask for something to be done for you and don't wait for people to get back to you. Find the course conductor you want and email/phone them directly.

http://www.cspa.ca/en/cwc/learning-facilitator-list